Curse

Amy Awien · Jul 19, 2006, 05:53 AM // 05:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lordhelmos

Lately theres been a huge problem with the community thinking that classes are gears towards SPECIFIC roles that are set in stone.

It is Factions, where pc's get powerleveled to level 20 by the game and people no longer have time to try out skills and develop skillsets (or builds) for themselves. But they have to perform, or at least they think so, and thus they resort to what is safe, cookiecutter builds, and expect you to do the same thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warcheif_Jonval

But hes right Amy. You dont have to be in that leaders party if he/she doesnt want you there. he controlls that option. (and the reverse can be said if they want you.)

That is about the only thing he really controls. There are 8 people in that party, who are all playing the game, doing a mission. Assuming you have somehow the right to pursue your own pleasure at the cost of those other 7, is asocial.
Anyway, the moment you've entered the mission you're in the same position as everyone in your group.

Quote:

But no matter how egotistical that statement is, its true. I have minimal obligation to you when I invite you to my party, and you have minimal obligation to my party when you accept the invite.
Either way you put it, you dont need to be with me :P

So, I just quit the party if I find out I don't like you, because I have minimal obligation to you? That is what you are saying. I assume it also is what you do.

Samuel Dravis · Jul 19, 2006, 10:54 AM // 10:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

It is Factions, where pc's get powerleveled to level 20 by the game and people no longer have time to try out skills and develop skillsets (or builds) for themselves. But they have to perform, or at least they think so, and thus they resort to what is safe, cookiecutter builds, and expect you to do the same thing.

They expect you to do what works. They know that certain builds work really, really well, and it's hardly unfair for them to expect you to use the most powerful one for any given instance. Sure, you can play your secondary or whatever, but will you ever be as effective as a primary class? No, you won't. Sure, you can absolutely refuse to take SS and just go with some other elite, but will you do as much damage? No, you won't.

Quote:

That is about the only thing he really controls. There are 8 people in that party, who are all playing the game, doing a mission. Assuming you have somehow the right to pursue your own pleasure at the cost of those other 7, is asocial.
Anyway, the moment you've entered the mission you're in the same position as everyone in your group.

That's assuming that doing your own thing is a good thing for the team. If I'm in charge, I'd ask what your setup is, and if it didn't seem like it would help the party and you refused to change it, sure I'd boot you. I'm just not interested in losing an hour+ long mission, because that's a significant part of my free time to have essentially wasted (I know, weird that someone wants to get through missions without doing them 50 times). Assuming that you have the right to play an ineffective/less effective build that blows everyone else's time is 'asocial'.
Might even be considered selfish.

Quote:

So, I just quit the party if I find out I don't like you, because I have minimal obligation to you? That is what you are saying. I assume it also is what you do.

Not at all - you simply leave while in town if you don't want to do what the leader wants you to. Quite simple. I never leave parties once I am with them outside, but I am quite mercenary while in town. And you're right - while there, I don't have any obligation to a party.

Amy Awien · Jul 19, 2006, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis

They expect you to do what works. They know that certain builds work really, really well, and it's hardly unfair for them to expect you to use the most powerful one for any given instance.

I know best what works for me, what fits my playstyle and what is the 'most powerfull'. If the team (or you as team leader) wants me to fullfill a specific task, that is fine, I'll adapt my build, gladly, I can do that, on the fly.

In fact, I prefer it when it is stated upfront what is expected of me, but don't just tell me to run this or that exact build.

Quote:

Sure, you can play your secondary or whatever, but will you ever be as effective as a primary class? No, you won't. Sure, you can absolutely refuse to take SS and just go with some other elite, but will you do as much damage? No, you won't.

Quote:

...Assuming that you have the right to play an ineffective/less effective build that blows everyone else's time is 'asocial'.
Might even be considered selfish.

You've completely missed that which I responded to and that is his statement that I, and the rest of the team, would be there for his pleasure. Well, sorry, I am not, I am plaing this game for my amusement as much as that of others.
Forming a group is not about fullfilling your needs alone, if all you are concerned about is your pleasure then yes, you are asocial.

Quote:

Not at all - you simply leave while in town if you don't want to do what the leader wants you to. Quite simple. I never leave parties once I am with them outside, but I am quite mercenary while in town. And you're right - while there, I don't have any obligation to a party.

I don't normally quit from a mission, unless it is agreed upon, I tend to stick around against all odds. At least the loot gets better with fewer partymembers to share it with :P

But I must point out that what I said is the logical result of what was stated by Warcheif_Jonval:

Quote:

I have minimal obligation to you when I invite you to my party, and you have minimal obligation to my party when you accept the invite.

It tells me he doesn't care one bit. Loyalty goes both ways, if he does not feel 'obliged' towards his party and fellowplayers, he can not expect them, or me, to feel obliged, nor does he, btw, that is what he says.

edit: fixed the name

Samuel Dravis · Jul 19, 2006, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

I know best what works for me, what fits my playstyle and what is the 'most powerfull'. If the team (or you as team leader) wants me to fullfill a specific task, that is fine, I'll adapt my build, gladly, I can do that, on the fly.

In fact, I prefer it when it is stated upfront what is expected of me, but don't just tell me to run this or that exact build.

That's fine with me. I usually only tell people what exact build to use if it's quite clear they have no idea what to expect/do (ie, people that ask me what arcane echo is used for when they advertised themselves as SS etc). Otherwise, I'd just say a generalized "healer", "protector", or "nuker"
- I don't really care what they bring as long as they know what they're doing and they're fulfilling the role that I need them for. For the nuker slot I've brought smite monks before, it's just that I need to know what they are doing.

Quote:

You've completely missed that which I responded to and that is his statement that I, and the rest of the team, would be there for his pleasure. Well, sorry, I am not, I am plaing this game for my amusement as much as that of others.
Forming a group is not about fullfilling your needs alone, if all you are concerned about is your pleasure then yes, you are asocial.

I agree. However, doing something like joining a group to do a mission means that you want to complete the mission. The entire party wants to complete the mission, or has at least agreed to do so. That makes it the objective, which means that it is in the interests of everyone to modify their builds to make it happen. Generally people making parties know what they're doing and have been through the mission a couple of times at least. Myself, I like having someone who knows what they're doing in charge and can tell other people what works best. It makes it much more fun because it fulfills the objective and we all get to advance. Personally I think that AFK'ers in the faction missions are much more asocial than people wanting someone to change their builds to fit a mission profile.

Quote:

But I must point out that what I said is the logical result of what was stated by Lordhelmos and to which I responded:
It tells me he doesn't care one bit. Loyalty goes both ways, if he does not feel 'obliged' towards his party and fellowplayers, he can not expect them, or me, to feel obliged, nor does he, btw, that is what he says.

I feel obliged to party members only when I am actually outside of town doing something with them. Inside town, who cares? Just pick up another ranger. I don't expect anyone to stay in my party nor will I get angry about it when someone leaves in town. People join/stay in parties in town because that's what they WANT to do, not because they feel compelled (which would not be exactly fun, anyway). If you leave outside, however, I will get annoyed, because you agreed to come with the party and see it to the end when the leader invited you. If you don't stay, you just used everyone else for your own ends and that is definitely asocial.

Amy Awien · Jul 19, 2006, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Feeling obliged only when out of town is good enough for me. Your point of view does however differ from that of Warcheif_Jonval and Thom.

Orinn · Jul 20, 2006, 09:23 AM // 09:23

I was annoyed the other day when I got a blind invite on my R/Rt in the war camp. I accepted, having said in global chat that I was barrage or interrupts. the first thing the leader said was "you BP?"

When I said tat I normally bring spirits instead of a pet, I got kicked. No discussion, no asking anythig about the build, simply kicked. I went on to take SF with henchies, getting 3 green drops along the way, and laughing to myself the entire time.

Just because a build is a bit odd, doesn't make it inferior. I'd rather have a group of people who came up with and play their own builds, and play them well through practice, than a group that all got their builds from a website and no experience using them, any day. It's the PLAYER who makes the difference, not the build.

Amy Awien · Jul 20, 2006, 09:50 AM // 09:50

That is annoying, there should have been some talk possible. B/P is a team build and some rangers do take spirits, and a pet. If it was a B/P team, which I somehow doubt, they might have really wanted a pet from you, but just kicking you for giving your normal build is rude.

zeracore · Jul 22, 2006, 03:31 AM // 03:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orinn

Just because a build is a bit odd, doesn't make it inferior. I'd rather have a group of people who came up with and play their own builds, and play them well through practice, than a group that all got their builds from a website and no experience using them, any day. It's the PLAYER who makes the difference, not the build.

i have and odd build for a w/mo and the Elite is healing burst
rite now people call me noob all the time but 99 times out of a 100 i out serve theme exspecialy in pvp i have been experimenting with my build for 9 months now and it is really coming in to it own sen the relies of factions
and even with out and elite skill i can out survive most thing i meat on the batil Field
my build was derive for having to deal with no monk in the party and has no defense Satanist all my deafens come from monk healing prayers
.
it is odd but it works for me

fiery · Jul 22, 2006, 03:33 AM // 03:33

Welcome to Random Arenas scenario.
Lack of res sigs.
Monk doing a metoer shower.
Warrior with traps.
AND of all Crit Barrager, I have no idea people can play or call that a build.

Amy Awien · Jul 22, 2006, 07:57 AM // 07:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by fiery

AND of all Crit Barrager, I have no idea people can play or call that a build.

The Critical Barrager is in the Tested Builds section on GW-Wiki, I suppose that means it is playable. It doesn't mean that just anyone can actually use it efficiently.

Xaero Gouki Kriegor · Jul 22, 2006, 09:04 AM // 09:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by TopGun

Necromancers = Goths
Ritualists = Hippies
Mesmers = Gays
Warriors = Jocks
Assassains = Gymnasts
Monks = Holy kids that never loose their virginity
Elementalits = Very bangable preppy girls

You want stereotypes? There you go.

Ritualists = Hippies Broken down from acid
Rangers = Freaky kid that has all the spiders and snakes and insects

K U J A · Jul 22, 2006, 12:55 PM // 12:55

First of all, for all of you that are saying that when a group kicked you because of your build and you went and accomplished something with henchies, have you ever stopped and thought that maybe it wasn't you but the henchies doing everything??

I'm in Greece atm playing gw on my sis' laptop. IT LAGS ALOT. On my monk i wanted to go cap a skill in the shiverpeaks, so i took some henchies, normally i take everything xept the ranger/mesmer henchie. While on my way to where the boss was, we got attacked by big groups. I didnt do sh*t, no attacking no healing (just getting to where i was supposed to go) because of the lag, but still no1 died because the henchies did their job, healing+dealing alot of dmg. When you take henchies, it isn't your build that prevails, it's theirs.

If you want to win, you have to use a winning build, not some bullshit n/r barrageway. People wont take you in their groups because they dont want you to waste their time and chances of winning.

Amy Awien · Jul 22, 2006, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by K U J A

First of all, for all of you that are saying that when a group kicked you because of your build and you went and accomplished something with henchies, have you ever stopped and thought that maybe it wasn't you but the henchies doing everything??

I assure you, without your lead the henchies will accomplish nothing. :P

They can hold their own though, when attacked. Think of them as a varied, 7 man monster group. I imagine such a group would normally be big enough to warrant some special attention from your group rather then just marching over them.

Well, maybe it's the henchies, so I suppose it would be best to take henchies. Most PuG's will however tend to kick you for even suggesting to fill up the group with some of them.

Quote:

If you want to win, you have to use a winning build, not some bullshit n/r barrageway. People wont take you in their groups because they dont want you to waste their time and chances of winning.

A build will not win and will not help a team to win, you need player skill.

I've done a mission like the Iron Mines several times, to get new pieces of armor infused. Most PuG's that fail this mission fail not because of bad builds, but bad decisions and poor communication. One player wants to run, he runs, and then he dies. Then the next. And another one. Now the remaining group is either without tanks, or left to disorganized and spread out to make it. While if you take this mission calmly, it is a walk in the park, including bonus and even with henchies.
It is not (just) the build - I prefer the term skillset - but how you use it within the team.

Edit: I am no expert on builds but I thought barrageway was another word for Barrage/Pet which is a team build and would thus be an excellent example of the individual adapting to the team.

Ensign · Jul 22, 2006, 07:43 PM // 19:43

The Critical Barrager exists because of how godawful most assassins are in PvE. Giving them a bow and hiding them in the back with Barrage is often the strongest thing you can do with them. That is unless you have a minion master, then the assassin's regular supply of corpses can be put to good use to help the team.

Peace,
-CxE

Master Fuhon · Jul 22, 2006, 08:51 PM // 20:51

It's always fun to read uptight theres-only-one-way-to-do-things people debate with more creative minds. I like a group with only a fire nuker and minion master for damage. You could then have a heal and a protect monk for support. The fifth character would have to be a speed rezzer, to continually resurrect the last three, which would be the worst random builds you could imagine. Just throw protect and heal spells on anyone at any time to make them into a tank, even minions sometimes, and the sucky builds can be a constant source of new corpses. I don't understand why people want these builds abolished from the game. Let everyone play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lando Griffen

I don't know what everyone else posted, but I would rather a character play a role that it's suited to play. I had a monk on my team who was using skills like suffering (15 energy for maybe 2 degen on the enemy). If you want to throw necro curses at the enemy, make a necro, or at least use a class that is complimentary (divine favor is in no way useful to someone casting hexes).

Monk is a class to play if you're in the mood to play the skill bar everyone else is going to dictate to you (full heal/protect). That's why when I want to have fun I'll go Mo/Me with Inspired Hex. I could have given you a heart attack yesterday using Lightning Surge (nice exhaustion) for knockdowns and Phantom Pain to kill enemies with Deep Wound.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

That is unless you have a minion master, then the assassin's regular supply of corpses can be put to good use to help the team.

Insert any random build into the place of the assassin in this statement. Without a minion master you actually need a plan.

Ensign · Jul 23, 2006, 12:51 AM // 00:51

If random.assassin didn't die 10x more than any other potential party member I would agree. The ability of an assassin to drop dead is legendary though, it is only natural to bring corpse exploitation skills with one in your group.

Peace,
-CxE

Master Fuhon · Jul 23, 2006, 02:28 AM // 02:28

Can't argue with that Ensign. The assassin seems like it can only work for fighting mobile balanced groups with soft targets positioned in a backline defense. That leaves about one build possible for being an assassin (AoD) although Return works pretty nice. Recall was too energy heavy for me.

The other builds involve just walking/running right into combat like a warrior would. That's when you would get a nice Prophecies style beat down... getting swarmed by hordes of melee, having your self protection enchants shattered by groups of mesmers, elementalist spiked, etc.

To go along with the original topic, I tried out an E/Rt dual attuned fire build with Generous Was Tsungai and Soothing Memories in a factions Temple Mission PUG... missed masters by 36 seconds. Aggro control wasn't there, so the old renewal/echo nuker would have gotten worse results. But the 36 seconds could have been the difference between me running my dual recharge gear instead of carrying urns, since I was the sole nuker.

On the other hand, I held aggro for a moment with my superior self heals and survived a 3 afflicted warrior frenzy attack while casting and managed to cast at least two 70 point heals on characters that would have died. I guarantee Aura of Restoration wouldn't have done this, because the group almost wiped at that point.

Other causes for missing by 36 seconds...minion master died at one point from fighting up close, and we had to recreate the army. At another point the minions body blocked a ghost.

art of war · Jul 23, 2006, 03:10 AM // 03:10

yeah it kind of angers me that people discrimnate against me when im playing my sin or my ritualist. but if you cant find a random grp go with guild mates cause they know how you play and there easier to get along with. and also my sin doesnt drop like fly.

K U J A · Jul 23, 2006, 08:23 AM // 08:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

A build will not win and will not help a team to win, you need player skill.

It is not (just) the build - I prefer the term skillset - but how you use it within the team.

Alright, sorry, i counted the build after skill. Once you have the skill, you can't run some random build. You need something that's proven to have worked as a team.

Amy Awien · Jul 23, 2006, 09:10 AM // 09:10

You lost me here, what are you trying to say?